We had a really interesting but potentially controversial comment yesterday on one of our blog posts on worship leading about interactive worship. We’re publishing the quote here in full as we’d love to hear others’ views. Please do continue the discussion below.
Frank Viola and George Barna write in chapter 6 of Pagan Christianity:Exploring the Roots of our Church Practices:
“Those who lead worship select the songs that are to be sung. They begin those songs. They decide how those songs are to be sung. And they decide when those songs are over. Those in the audience in no way, shape or form lead the singing. They are led by someone else who is often part of the clerical staff – or who has similar stature.
This is in stark contrast to the first-century way. In the early church, worship and singing were in the hands of all of God’s people. The church herself led her own songs. Singing and leading songs was a corporate affair, not a professional event led by specialists…
A worship leader robs God’s people of a vital function: to select and lead their own singing in the meetings – to have divine worship in their own hands – to allow Jesus Christ to direct the singing of His church rather than have it led by a human facilitator.”
(Cartoon courtesy of asbojesus.wordpress.com)
Other blog posts you might find interesting:
What is worship? - Michael Frost’s take on Paul’s definition of worship
The gathering of believers vs open mic night - the way one church chooses to lead worship
Brian MacLaren on worship songs
A theology of worship – stumbling towards mystery
Something old something new – combing liturgy and postmodern culture
Thoughts on church, worship, theology and more
19 Comments
Stef Liston gave a really good preach at one of the Worship School events this year along a very similar theme.
Link here, well worth watching/listening to:
http://worshipschool.com/ (go to resources and choose either MP3 or video)
Thanks for that recommendation Mark. Really glad that I took some time out of my day to listen to that talk. A coherent challenge to enable worship leaders to facilitate more of the presence of the Holy Spirit in worship by encouraging the congregation to bring something too.
A few snippets here to wet the appetite of anyone thinking about downloading the MP3.
-Stef suggests that as there is no Biblical gift of “worship leading”, worship leaders tend therefore to lead out of other gifts namely prophecy or leadership. I found that quite helpful in terms of thinking about effective styles of leading.
- He sees the role of the worship leader as one which facilitates the flow of spiritual gifts through the body (rather than simply leading the singing)
- Stef them made a number of suggestions on how to encourage more of what he terms charismatic (or New Testament) worship:
- Plan to play just one song max (radical yes but perhaps yielding radical results) and then see what happens
- Stop playing sometimes in order to create space for the congregation to pray, prophesy etc
- Play the whole time (conversely) so that the prophetic people can really sense what is going on
- Don’t fear silence
- Don’t be a control freak
- Don’t be a perfectionist
- Don’t insist that every contribution is first checked by an elder (Stef is part of the New Frontiers movement which tends to have prophetic contributions first weighed by a member of the leadership)
- Sing gospel songs (i.e. songs about the gospel) rather than songs of the “old covenant” namely songs that could have been sung before Jesus came
- Encourage the church with promises from the Bible of the willingness of the Holy Spirit to speak
I’ve particularly picked from the second half of the talk so do feel free to download and listen to the whole thing. Great food for thought (and a chance for you Americans to experience a genuine South London accent!)
This is an intersting comment. My first thoughts are:
1) How do we know that the first century church didn’t have leaders of the singing?
2) If the congregation are left to “lead” who are we following? Surely if 600 people are leading it’s going to get difficult to know who is leading / starting a new song. Even when we have an open prayer time in our congregation it’s difficult to hear someone over the other side of the room.
Ideas like:
“The church herself led her own songs.”
“to allow Jesus Christ to direct the singing of His church rather than have it led by a human facilitator.”
These sound a bit wishy washy to me. i.e. How can Jesus direct the singing when He isn’t here in person? He lives in Christians and if He is directing the singing He is very able to do this
through member’s of the worship team…
Just my initial thoughts – interesting topic, thanks.
Phil
Some things to contemplate here.
Didn’t the early church, much like the reformed among us, sing Psalms? Wouldn’t these have been led by Priests, I have a hard time imagining that a non Levite would lead a song.
Then, in today’s church for comparative sake, would we be OK with a lack of a worship leader, and the resultant congregational singing; if it happened at all, knowing that you may lose out if songs not relevant to the sermon topic are sung, reinforcement may be lost. I know the Spirit can sometimes move people, but I would be a bit skeptical of that portion always working out properly.
bassmanbrian on twitter
Pagan Christianity is an intriguing book and viewpoint. Though at times a bit condescending and elevating of the authors’ heed to the voice of God, His Will, and the Word over that of many of us that seek His will as well.
However, as a “worship leader” I would be happy to give my job up if it meant that the congregation were in tune with the direction of the Spirit and its leading. Though unfortunately I do not believe this to be the case as quite often I myself am not in tune.
Barna’s numbers are indicative of the trend that many people are disillusioned with the church system (myself included), however, total disregard of a system for a new system has always proved to be immensely damaging to those in the system, those who are curious about the system, and even those who oppose it.
Worship is larger than the few songs that we sing on Sunday morning. If we come together to raise our voices in praise to the Almighty it is much more fluid to do so in unison rather than with opposing forces. To realize that worship is a lifestyle that never quits is often to large for me to comprehend or even achieve.
All of that being rambled, the core of the issue may be just like it is in the “Traditional vs. Contemporary” debates. It is not “either, or” that will solve the fight but rather knowing which appropriate in what situation and that in Christ we have the freedom to participate how we feel the Spirit leading.
Just to throw something else into the mix.
At the last Worship Central day, Bishop Graham Cray spoke on Worship and Culture, but one of his big points was that if we as Worship Leaders think we’re leading the worship, we’re very very wrong, or we’re doing it wrong.
Here’s what I’ve got written in my notes:
Worship is the gift of giving back (we have nothing to offer that is truly acceptable, but by grace God accepts)
Jesus is the ONLY worship leader.
He is the Perfect worship leader
Worship is joining with Jesus as He praises His Father.
To the Father, through the Son, by the Spirit (Ephesians 2:18)
“Abba”-Jesus word for God is put on our lips
By the Spirit we worship God.
So, basically all we’re doing as leaders is joining with what Jesus is doing, and inviting others to do the same. And then all this is facilitated by the Holy Spirit. Although God chooses to use us, he could bypass us altogether if he wanted.
I lead a worship team in South London. It’s an evangelical charismatic church with quite ‘free’ worship. (Part of the New Frontiers family of churches that Stef belongs to).
A few thoughts to throw into the discussion…
Regarding the initial quote above, we seek to allow people to select and lead their own songs, but I don’t think that negates the role of another person/people leading worship ‘from the front’ also.
If this weren’t the case, even practically speaking how would they regularly benefit from fresh new songs and guard against those that might be questionable? Would it not end up being led by a few people anyway who ‘know’ the songs and/or have the confidence to sing out? Would the rich range of songs that are out there being lost over time? Also, I wonder whether rather than being inclusive actually it would make people feel obliged to lead or otherwise uncomfortable! I’m not sure that’s the kind of challenge I’d want as a visitor to the church or if I couldn’t sing and was thaught that is what corporate worship ‘is’! Having music and someone lead who is ‘prayed up!’ and prepared certainly helps me focus on God and enter into worship!
I should say, however, that I definitely believe in ‘body ministry’ and proactively encouraging people to sing out, pray out, prophecy, bring a scripture etc during corporate worship.
To prepare for this and best enable it, our worship leaders will spend time in prayer and select a wide range of songs for a 40min(ish!) block of worship. We generally start with a couple pre-planned and then are sure to leave space for people to contribute. The band and PA are quick to bring the levels down so people can be heard when they speak or sing out (as long they don’t whipser!). We’ll often have periods of silence, and regularly encourage people to contribute, backed up with scripture to give them confidence and understanding in this.
Having a wide range of songs available (and practiced by the worship team) means that if God is leading in a certain direction we’ll then alter our song selection as best we can on-the-fly. Simply put, we listen to the contributions coming out and have our song selection shaped for us as we go, as best we can. We vary the selection as we go to emphasis or respond to contirbutions that are brought. We find this helps people respond to where God seems to be leading on that morning, and also encourages them to contirbute. We usually end up using 6 or so songs from a list of 12 or 13.
If people singing out spontansously is something we’re after, which I think is great, we find having a low-level music playing (without front-led singing) encourages others to sing out much more than silence does and leaving it all up to them! We can then ‘go with them’ as musicians when they start.
An advantage then of having a ‘human facilitator’ in this way is that they know a wide range of songs that could flexibly help the congregation respond to where God is leading. It helps others respond to and follow contributions that are made, rather than hindering this.
I’m definitely not saying this is the only way to do things of course! Even if you only agree in part, or even not at all(!), considering carefully what others find biblical and helpful in worship is defintely a good idea – which is why I value this kind of blog!
A few quick thoughts dashed out at work! Now back to it…
from the U.S. and a very conservative, small town church…
Personally? I love being part of open, free worship led by the Holy Spirit and have been fortunate to have been part of a church like that 25+ years ago during the Jesus People movement — however much I miss that, I feel I’ve been led to this small town church and I lead the worship music on the “contemporary” Sundays (OK, liturgy and songs 20-30 years old aren’t really contemporary but it’s outside the hymnal, thus waaaay outside the box!) I was LOL to think of playing softly at the front of this congregation w/no song or liturgy leadership! Sorry, but the Holy Spirit does facilitate worship even in painfully quiet congregations who seldom say “God” out loud even in church committee meetings. But He’s still there, drawing people unto himself.
Sorry if this is a bit off-topic – just had to bring a bit of perspective that not all God’s churches – sincere people who do love Jesus – are ready for free flowing worship w/out leadership. As Paul says “I’m all things to all people so that all people might know Christ” (sorry for the bad paraphrase).
So while if I’m ever in London, my soul would rejoice to be part of a service like that, I’ll continue to have my private worship while I practice before anyone gets to church and pray that the Holy Spirit uses my gifts to bless others w/out offeding them…
May God’s harmony bless all our worship! :-)
p.s. this was in response to the original post, not a response to Jason’s post — sorry if it came across like that! References to the South London worship service were simply because – #1 it was what I’d just read and #2 – that sounds soooo awesome!.
I couldn’t disagree more to the statement, “A worship leader robs God’s people of a vital function: to select and lead their own singing in the meetings – to have divine worship in their own hands – to allow Jesus Christ to direct the singing of His church rather than have it led by a human facilitator.” This statement shows a complete lack of understanding of of the Biblical concept of the “Shepherd”. To do what is suggested would not foster corporate worship but instead create division. The article on baby steps eloquently made the case of why a “Worship Leader” is not only needed, but more importantly is Biblical. To call this “Dictatorial Worship” in my opinion only exposes one’s inability to submit to Godly leadership. Worship leaders have a hard enough time already leading people to worship in unison without this type of inflammatory rhetoric.
In the Old Testament, there were worship leaders…they were the Levites who are skilled musicians or singers whose specific job was to lead the people in worship. There were appointed song writers as evidenced in the Psalms. Because the New Testament church was meeting in smaller groups rather than at feasts or celebrations in large corporate settings as were prescribed in the Old Testament doesn’t seem to me to indicate that somehow that today’s worship leaders are robbing people of their own part in the worship experience. I would not agree with the reasoning of that statement, especially since Paul gives directives that meetings are to be orderly. It stands to reason that at some point as things grew a leader helped facilitate that order. People are only robbed of their role in worshipping God if they are given the impression that the only place worship can occur is in a corporate setting.
I have to disagree with the statements made, as many other commenters above have. We don’t let the kids run the Sunday School classes, nor do the people preach to the pastor in most churches. Why would we expect a congregation of 150 to 3000 to lead the singing times, or communion, or any part of worship for that matter. It isn’t practical, and we need to remember that the practical goes hand-in-hand with the spiritual. Quite often we completely separate the two, which is incorrect.
In most churches of more than about 20 people, if we let the congragation lead anything (in a formal service), let alone the music, it would be utter chaos. The reason that we have worship leaders is so that they will a)prepare themselves by getting in-tune with the Holy Spirit, b)prayerfully prepare a worship package, whatever songs and other elements that may include, and c)practically lead others (who most likely have not prepared themselves) into a place of spiritual connection with God. Yes, we do need to facilitate the moving of the Spirit in all of this, but the better the leader’s preparation is, the better he or she will be able to do that.
The only instance that I could see body-lead worship times is in a small group or bible study situation, with a small number of people. While it keeps things interesting to try new ways of expressing our worship, especially when those ways are given as examples in Scripture, we must also not forget to use common sense in the many aspects of church and personal life that we encounter daily.
I like the shepherd analogy that was said, that is so relevant in this topic of discussion.
‘Pagan Christianity’ does make some good points, but personally I couldn’t recommend it as a book. Unfortunately, it seems that the authors’ purpose in the book is merely to propose what they see as being the New Testament way of worship (how do we know there was only one way?!) as being the only or the best way. This is a poor premise and therefore their handling of the Bible needs careful exploration. Use of Scriptures such as 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 14 and Ephesians 5 seem to be used more to further their arguments than to simply interpret the Bible.
The authors write that 1 Corinthians 12 is about a Sunday service, when clearly it’s about the whole body operating in its fullness. Their interpretation of Ephesians 5.19 is used to advocate the early church ‘model’ of all being involved in worship. Yet in Ephesians it’s not used in this context at all, but to challenge us about our Christian lifestyle (it even says sing and make music in your heart – not out loud, but clearly we do sing out loud!) Why does having a leader stop people’s involvement in worship? Surely it enhances it- training people and releasing them in giftings (as in 1 Chronicles 15) This is what we do, as well as involving others in the band and beyond in song choice, leading – and being open to God on a Sunday morning (note the more open you are, the more skilled / practiced you may need to be..)
1 Corinthians 14 is used to promote a free way of worship where ‘everyone has a word..’ etc. But Paul is not saying this is the only way of worship – he’s describing what the Corinthian church was doing and then goes on to describe the need for order. Incidentally in the same passage the Bible also talks about women being silent in church.. Clearly this is not right, yet it is in the centre of Paul describing the Corinthian church worship! The New Testament church met in both small and large groups, but nowhere is there any evidence of God telling us that one way is the only right way!
I’d also take issue with the authors arguing that now we’re under the NT covenant that there is no longer a need for good or professional musicians. The Bible talks about doing everything to the best of our abilities, as if serving Christ. Beyond that 1 Chronicles 25 talks about the Levites and describes them as skillful musicians, young and old. I see no evidence that this has changed – what we’re aiming for is doing the best we can and growing – just as we do in our Christian lives (glory to glory).
The authors go on to argue that having a worship leader denies the headship of Christ. But clearly a good worship leader (if you have one) should be led by Christ and then enable / encourage / help direct the church (worship leading is surely about encouraging and listening to people rather than telling them what to do). How does not having a leader make things any more led by Jesus? We could also argue why the New Testament ‘model’ of worship is the best one, in the 21st century West. The New Testament only covers about the first 32 years of the newly born (persecuted) church, yet the Holy Spirit has been working in many different ways of worship since then. If we believe the ‘New Testament’ is the only way, are we denying the leading of the Holy Spirit over the last 2000 years?
Having said all that… Obviously worship is about our hearts. God is so much bigger than our neat theologies. He’s so much wider, deeper, higher and beyond our understanding. Outside of the fundamentals of our faith which are true and unchanging, there are many areas of ‘church’ and ‘worship’ that are ‘up for grabs’ so to speak. If you like open times of worship and can manage it in your church – great! If you like formal worship, strictly timed and synchronised, great! If you like open times of prayer and prophecy, God loves it. If you like to read off a prayer book, God loves that too! I see worship and church like the picture in John 15: if Jesus is the vine and we are branches, then every branch is different lengths, thicknesses and shapes. So should our worship be! What is absolutely key is for us to be led by the Holy Spirit, obedient and putting Jesus at the centre – and very importantly, loving and appreciating each other :)
I think it is down to all of us to lead worship by example (not by “lording it” over people), whatever circumstance we are in – whether we are in the “all holy Viola church of rightness” or the deadliest of dry liturgical wastelands. Our goal in our personal worship, whether we happen to be on stage, in the back row, or doing our so-called secular job on a Monday morning, should be to present not just ourselves but those around us, a perfect and unblemished bride for Christ. Christ is not worshipped by an organisation, however Biblical its order of service. He is worshipped by sinners (including worship leaders and authors) in relationships of forgiveness with himself and with each other.
So interesting. I actually love a good debate. Good being defined as one where respect and honor are present.
I am the lead worshipper in a small isolated town and in a small church.
My hearts desire is to be able to start with one song and then have the Holy Spirit take everyone over and we worship corporately – organically, even, however – although that may be possible some Sundays – and we do experience ‘free praise, prophesy, new songs etc’ on occasion – most Sunday mornings people are coming in burdened, not prepared to worship, rather looking for someone to take them by their hands and lead them to the Throne.
One thing I know about leadership is that you cannot lead others where you haven’t been – so preparation, prayer, meditation and practice are essential.
If I was to take exception to anything quoted from Barna’s book it would be the description of the ‘worship leader’. I am a volunteer, not part of a staff, nor do I have at my fingertips conferences or seminars galore to attend. I, being a part of the Bride, am simply at the front, with fellow members of the Bride, laying our lives and worship bare for others to either follow, join or ignore.
I am a worshipper, I am a pursuer of my Bridegroom, I am a musician therefore leadership felt released to ask me to lead in worship – it’s that simple. To be judged as dictatorial or tyrannical is something I will not wear – my Beloved – and the leaders of our church- know my heart.
After all it all comes down to relationship.
As are some others I’m a worship leader (and pastor) in a small church. I think so much of how we lead worship in any particular setting is dependent upon the context, and in particular the expectations of those there.
I notice a couple of people question the practicality of having the congregation lead if there are many. I go to football matches with 50,000 or more spectators. There is lots of singing and rhythms clapped out remarkably in time (bearing in mind the effect of the speed of sound across the stadium). There is no official ‘worship’ leader, but there are several unofficial ones who write new songs, teach them to others in the vicinity, which then get picked up gradually by more and more people. I witnessed ‘Gutierrez from Buenos Aires’ (it rhymes!) being sung 50+ times until people got it. There is no PA system for the benefit of these leaders or official assistance of any kind, and yet the songs get taught to 50,000 people.
There is an expectation among those attending that this is how it works – and it does.
I was also at Soul Survivor 2009 in Shepton Mallett in August when the power went. After a brief pause, the congregation of 10,000 continued singing unaccompanied. After it finished, someone (don’t think it was Beth Coulson who was leading, but I might be wrong) someone started a hymn and everyone picked it up.
I love being led in worship by a humble Spirit-led worship leader, but I think we should pause before rejecting challenging ideas too quickly.
I’ll have to read the book myself to see what the fuss is about!
Barna/Viola’s “Pagan Christianity” wasn’t a stand-alone book. The sequel is called “Reimagining Church”, it’s the constructive part of the discussion. He also has a new book that’s the practical follow-up to both books. It’s called “Finding Organic Church.” Viola’s article “Why I Love the Church” explains the motivation behind all three books. http://frankviola.wordpress.com/2009/08/18/why-i-love-the-church-in-praise-of-gods-eternal-purpose/
I’m intrigued by the idea that worship must be organised and orderly. Pentecost brought accusations of drunkenness. Any detailed study of historical revivals will yeald numerous examples of complete chaos. Why are we so keen to be tidy?
This must be a result of the “birds of a feather” effect. If our meetings are neat and tidy they will attract people who are neat and tidy. This is self perpetuating and is one of the reasons that so few people are in church on a Sunday.
I struggled with this when settling into a church (after being instantly released from drug addiction when I asked Jesus into my heart). The chaos of my life was silently mocked by the orderly nature of the suited and booted people in the meetings. Only the dramatic nature of my conversion and some wise words from an apostolic leader kept me from leaving. How many are put off by the structured meetings that are portrayed as “the way that we meet with and worship God”. Thankfully I fell in with a good crowd. People who didn’t mind if there were a few piles of paperwork on the table (along with every mug in the place…). As I grew I realised that we are all different. Looking back I realise how many of those different ones are no longer following Jesus in an established church. Some have found expressions that match their personality better. Some are dead, having returned to the drugs.
The church is the expression of God’s kingdom here on earth. It’s calling is to go into ALL the earth… We seem to only want to make disciples of people who are of the same mindset as ourselves. Nice people. People who like our songs and make us feel good about our musical ministry.
To bring this back. How much of the discussion here is only actually relevant if the church is defined as those who go to an established Sunday meeting. What about the care workers, shop workers, professional musicians, and so on who are not able to be there? What about the dyslexic, dysgraphic, introverted and hurt people? A lot of them cannot “do” words and sequential instructions and so are excluded.
I have been lectured to on a number of occasions for stepping “over the line” of propriety in worship. Thankfully this was more than a decade ago in my own church. My current leadership is really very good. They have, on occasion, been known to cancel the sermon/communion/notices because God is up to stuff. Good times, sometimes good improvised music too.
Best if we actually give God room to move. Best if we don’t sing the songs anyway, when the leader and worship leader don’t have a clear sense of where we are going. I guess some churches with sensitive leaders are here anyway. If they encourage the congregation to step out into the gaps in the meeting then much of the discussion on this page is kinda redundant. Viva unity. Boo to conformity…
I have to tell you, I disagree. Our model for praise and worship is based on the Tabernacle of David.
It consists of:
Singers and singing (1 Chronicles 15:16-27 & 25:1-7)
Musicians and instruments (1 Chronicles 23:5, 25:1-7)
Ministry of Levites before the Ark (1 Chronicles 16:6,6,37)
Recording (1 Chronicles 16:4, 28:12, 19)
Thanking the Lord (1 Chronicles 16:4, 8, 41)
Praise (1 Chronicles 16:4, 36)
Psalms (1 Chronicles 16:9, Psalms 98:6)
Rejoicing and joy (1 Chronicles 16:10, 16, 25, 31)
Clapping hands (Psalm 47:1, 98:8, Isaiah 55:12)
Shouting (1 Chronicles 15:28, Psalms 47:1, 5; Isaiah 12:6)
Dancing (1 Chronicles 15:29; 2 Samuel 6:14, Psalms 149:3; Psalms 150:4)
Lifting up hands (Psalms 134: 141:2) (Lamentations 3:41)
Worship (1 Chronicles 16:29, Psalms 29:1-2, 95:6)
Seeking the Lord (1 Chronicles 16:10-11, 2 Chronicles 7:14)
Spiritual sacrifices (Psalms 27:6, 1 Peter 2:3-5, Hebrews 13:15,16)
Saying Amen (1 Chronicles 16:36)
According to the word of God, He want’s to restore the tabernacle:
“After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent (tabernacle). Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things that have been known for ages. ” Acts 15:13-18
Any research on Tabernacle of David will reveal that model for praise and worship was inspired by God. Furthermore, praise and worship was meant to be led by professionals. The Levitical priesthood were highly trained (and paid) musicians. They played 24 hours a day (with the exception of shift changes)!
In First Corinthians 14:40 Paul writes, “Let all things be done decently and in order.”
Those are my 2 cents!